Our thoughts are with the People of Russia

[sirius]

Vassily said:

Chirine, that's just terrible. But as someone's grand mother used to say: "this too shall pass". Sorry to hear about your friend and your family. I feel deeply for you and know what you're going through.
But seriusly, you shouldn't blame the terrorists. Read their biographies and you'll see: "Family deceased (in a war conflict)". They are doing to Russians what the Russians did to them. I don't approave such policy, but I don't blame them. Plus, they WOULD HAVE freed everybody if Putin negotiated and stopped the Chechen waras demanded. But he didn't. What he did is start an attack, perfectly knowing that people would die. The Russian president is to blame here. He's the evil, he's the monster. Not only is he an indirect child killer, he's also an open murderer. All his opponents die mysteriusly everyweek. Last week a journalist critical of him was poisoned....

hey vass... calm down...watch your blood pressure. get ur mum to bake u some cookies.

BIG HUG FOR CHIRINE...

[sirius]

my deepest sympathies go to the ppl of Indonesia and Australia.

a bomb exploded at the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia today.

[Vassily]

I don't get it, why do they bom Australia now? For Iraq?

[Teresa]

Posted by: Vassily Posted on: Today at 06:54am
I don't get it, why do they bom Australia now? For Iraq?

Australia's involvement in East Timor, and their involvement in Iraq has upset extremists, militants.
Also the upcoming elections could be one of the militant extremist reasons.

Reports so far say that no Australians fatalities, the fatalities so far have all been Indonesian's, and a lot of damage to surrounding buildings. Its all so pointless.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the people of Indonesia and to all the families who have lost love ones.


Last Updated: Thursday, 9 September, 2004, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK

Massive blast at Jakarta embassy


Security guards or passers-by may have been killed in the blast
At least eight people have been killed and about 100 injured in a massive blast outside the Australian embassy in Indonesia's capital, Jakarta.
Jakarta's police chief said a suicide car bomb may have caused the blast, and linked it to bomb expert Azahari Husin.

The BBC's Rachel Harvey says the attack left a large crater in the ground and damaged nearby buildings and vehicles.

Helicopters, ambulances and police have been at the site, in Kuningan, a district to the south of the city.


Police chief General Da'i Bachtiar said police believed the explosion was caused by a car bomb, similar to those used to attack Jakarta's Marriott Hotel last year and the Bali nightclubs in 2002.

Mr Bachtiar said it bore the hallmark of militant Islamic group Jemaah Islamiah (JI), which is widely blamed for both bombings.

HAVE YOUR SAY
I was in a meeting and felt the whole building shake in a huge explosion. A mushroom of dirty white smoke whooshed up above the embassy

John Day, Jakarta, Indonesia


Send us your comments
"From the investigation so far, it is estimated that it was a car bomb because at the site of the incident bits of a car wreck were found," he said.

"The modus operandi is very similar to other attacks, including the Bali bombings and the Marriott blast," he added.

"We can conclude [the perpetrators] are the same group."

Azahari Husin, a British-trained Malaysian engineer and one of Asia's most-wanted men, is suspected to have played a part in building both devices.

Appeal for calm

Indonesia's President, Megawati Sukarnoputri, who was attending a royal wedding in neighbouring Brunei, cut short her stay to return to Jakarta.

She has been visiting the scene of the blast and the hospitals where casualties were taken.

In a televised statement before her return, she expressed her concern and offered condolences to the victims.



" hope that all Indonesians will remain calm and will not get panicked. Certainly, those who do not want the election to succeed want us to get panicked. I have frequently urged all of us to complete the electoral process."

The second and final round of the country's presidential elections are due on 20 September.

Until now security and terrorism have not been major campaign issues, but that will almost certainly change now, our correspondent says.

Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer earlier said the blast was a terrorist attack directed at Australia.

"It is clearly a terrorist attack, it was outside the Australian embassy, you would have to conclude that it was directed towards Australia," Mr Downer told reporters in Adelaide.

Mr Downer is set to travel to Jakarta later on Thursday with police bomb experts and medical staff.

Business district

Australian Prime Minister John Howard said all embassy staff had been accounted for.

He said he could not yet be certain of the identity of the dead, adding they may have been local security personnel or passers-by.

Witnesses and reporters say they saw at least three bodies after the blast, which happened at about 1030 local time (0330 GMT).


In pictures: Embassy blast

One witness said he may have seen the vehicle that was used in the bombing.

"Before the bomb blast, a mini-van car intentionally hit the road divider which was placed in front of the embassy's gate," Ismanto, a security guard of the embassy, told Indonesia's Antara news agency.

Our correspondent says the embassy itself, in one of Jakarta's most exclusive and busiest business districts, is well protected by a security fence, and reports from inside suggest it did not sustain a lot of damage.

The centre of the blast was the road just in front of the embassy, but office blocks on either side of the eight-lane highway have been severely damaged.

Plumes of smoke could be seen rising into the air above the site after the blast. There are gaping holes where windows have been blown out. Glass, concrete and metal lie strewn across the ground.

INDONESIA'S WAVE OF TERROR
December 2000 - Christian churches bombings kill 19
October 2002 - Bali attacks kill 202, many Australian
December 2002 - Blast at McDonald's in Sulawesi kills three
August 2003 - Bomb at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta kills 12
September 2004 - Bomb outside Australian embassy in Jakarta


Bomb-makers still at large

The mangled remains of cars and motorbikes litter the area. Many were apparently lifted up into the air by the force of the blast, our correspondent says.

The police have now sealed off the area to allow investigators to sift through the debris looking for evidence.

Our correspondent says Western embassies recently raised their security alerts, saying that they had credible intelligence that an attack on the Indonesian capital was planned.

Indonesia's financial markets went into a tailspin after news of the attack emerged, with both shares and the currency sliding.

The blast also comes exactly a month before Australia holds a general election on 9 October. The threat of a terrorist attack on Australia has already been a campaign issue.

[Teresa]

The good news today is that
Gorg Farniyev (forgive me if I have spelt wrongly) who was one of the little boys held as a hostage in Beslan
and was shown in that horrific video, he is the the little boy shown next to the terrorist who had his foot on a trigger like thing on the floor, well he was found, he had been one of the missing, his tale is chilling, but lucky for him he was able to escape into the kitchen during the confusion towards the end and was able to hid in a cupboard in the kitchen.

I am so happy for him and his family, and only wish other families could find similar happiness.

[sirius]

Vassily said:

I don't get it, why do they bom Australia now? For Iraq?

australia's a target because of their involvement (or their govt rather) in iraq and blahblah as teresa has pointed out.

also it might have sth to do witht eh 9/11 anniversary coming up. during the bali bombings, it was mostly australians that were targetted as well.

[Teresa]

Vass I saw this interview today,


Thursday 9th September 2004, Grigory Yavlinsky, Chairman, Yabloko Party, Russia, with Tim Sebastian.
Russia says it will launch pre-emptive strikes on bases used by militants worldwide after last week's school siege in Beslan.

Grigory Yavlinsky, a former Russian Presidential candidate, is a vocal critic of the Putin government. He blames the Kremlin for what happened during the siege, in which at least 353 people were killed. The liberal politician has called for political dialogue with the Chechens and was directly involved in hostage negotiations in 2002, when Chechen rebels seized the Dubrovka theatre in Moscow.

Mr Yavlinsky does not think that there is a connection between the terrorists and the Chechens, that the terrorists and the political process in Chechnya is very different. That Putin must revise and rethink policies towards Chechnya before the gap widens.

He was saying that the terrorists who seized the Dubrovka theatre had no clear demands, it was if they were playing a game, a very dangerous game, and this kind of thinking is very had to understand and deal with.

He more or less said that revenge killing by Russia will only make life in Russia less secure than it is now.

I am sorry Vass, so very sorry for what is going on, and pray that situation may be resolved without further
revenge.

[Chiro]

Everyone>>> thankyou for your words.... it really means a lot to me..... i know that some of you don't know how im feeling but just taking the time to say what u guys did say means the WORLD to me...

Vass>> On lighter air.... i think me and you could talk politics forever... except not against each other.. but on the same side..... i do blame the terrorists but then i do blame the russian govt and army.. their actions.... their thinking... their lack of compassion probably as well.... but you know i was around when the chechen war occured and i know what happened.... im against evil and any form of hatred... especially at this level... no one should have to go through this..... especially children..... i don't care who did what and when... its ALL wrong.... our world is screwed up and we are all (meaning respective govt) just sitting back and watching it happen..

the war in Afganistan
Rwanda
Sudan
The war in Iraq
Bosnia
9/11
Bali
Ottowah
Israel/Palstine

And that all came up in my mind within 1 second... imagine spending 10 minutes and think of all the hatred and war that has occured...... THE WORLD IS AT BLAME..... every country can join with others and help.... but POLITICS will always be POLITICS.... and what do we see because of this? the worst possible torture.. against the future of this world... our children....

Now with the bomb against the Australian Embassy... and us being in Australia and me wanting to become an Ambassoder.... so much for that now..... How do we respond to this? what is left to do to help the situation that we haven't already done? Every country is looking after its own back and thats it!... so much for globalisation and the UN or other WORLD REPS>>>

You know what? This is all a load of CRAP.... the world always had issues but now... what we have seen happen in the space of 3 years has taken our concerns to another level.....

But anyways.... i want to say thankyou once again and every now and then when i can calm down enough to do work and study by researching, i'll drop by from time to time......

Always thinking of you,
Chirine

[chiefbjules]

Hi All,

Sorry to not be around for a couple of days, been very busy plus flu has hit our little household. I have had it badly and my partner was at home in bed when I left for work this morning.

My sympathy to Chirine and family, and I could not agree more.

This is a complete load of crap that both governments, and freedom fighters/terrorists (depends which conflict you are looking at and who you are listening to) keep putting the rest of the world through all this pain, none more so than the people of the areas being fought over.

Chechnya is a conflict that has been going on since the days of the Russian Empire, not just for 10 years. Sane people worldwide are wondering why it has not been resolved yet, but as the latest coming out of Moscow is the seizure of 4 journalists who like to report the truth, the sacking of editirs who HAVE shown photos of what really happened, and a few threats with the blunt message of 'butt out' to international Governments, most of us at work here think there will be no resolution soon, only more bloodshed on both sides from people who are fighting a regime that thinks nothing of allowing it's soldiers to not just kill rebels, but to rape and kill women and children. There are no excuses for taking the Beslan school, but there are plenty of reasons surfacing for why these Chechens went from soldiers to terrorists.

One of the worst parts for me is the children of Beslan probably died for oil. Russia will not give Chechnya it's independence as so many other States that formed the Soviet Union gained theirs becuse underneath Chechnya and it's neighbouring State's are vast oil reserves.

As for Indonesia, Australia has been a target for years for reasons most ordinary Australians are baffled about. Mostly when a bomb goes off in Indonesia at a Western target it nearly always kills only Indonesians, so I am never very certain whether Australia is just the excuse to bomb Indonesians, or if the terrorists really are not just that amoral, but uncaring of who they kill and incompetent. Most of the people who died yesterday, if not all, are Muslim Indonesian passers-by. Recent years, yeah, Iraq has made Australia a target in Indonesia, but most of us can only figure out it's the pro-US policies we have. We all get along just fine with ordinary Indonesians, many of which are educated here. My thought is that these people, unlike the Chechens, are true terrorists who kill for the sake of killing. They are not fighting for their freedom, just to get their own way. Martyrs to anything they are certainly not.

[Vassily]

ummm let's see... Did Russian politicians say that they're turning into USA with their preemptive strike policies? I bet Mr. Bush will support Putin on this and say: "See my good friends who opposed Iraq war, do it too". Anyway: I'm thinking that Putin will invade Georgia very soon with this excuse.

[Vassily]

chiefbjules said:

One of the worst parts for me is the children of Beslan probably died for oil. Russia will not give Chechnya it's independence as so many other States that formed the Soviet Union gained theirs becuse underneath Chechnya and it's neighbouring State's are vast oil reserves.

/quote]
Not "Russia" will not give independance, but Putin and his friends. The war wouldn't stop either. Some independant russian reporters investigated into this matter ( these journalists already died: 1 car crash, two food poisoning and one disappearence without a trace, the list of deaths grows very fast) and wrote why Putin needs this war. During the war a large amount of weaponry is lost in battle and is unaccounted for. At night Russian generals sell their weapons to the separatists under the cover of war. Also Russian generals built a tiny oil rig in EVERY village of Chechnya (it's easy to hide in any house because you need to dig only 2 meters to reach oil in some places) and they steal oil from there. Go ahead and argue that Putin doesn't have a hand in this, if you want.
On the other hand, if you see a Russian President which has withdrawn troops from Chechnya you might also see him granting that state independance. A president that doesn't have a personal interest in this matter will understand that Chechens will never fail to fight for themselves and that the oil reserves wouldn't be developed anyway because of the war. Chechnya might not even want independance: one time they agreed to stay a part of Russia as long as they have a democraticly elected leader and half of the money from oil stays in Chechnya. But this is purely the decision of the Chechens. Russia will NOT have the oil until Chechens are willing to give it, so the war is pointless.

[chiefbjules]

No need to get so excited, most people do understand that the Russian Government is Putin and his mates, and being ex-KGB there isn't a damned thing that goes on in these disident States that he does not know about, and even if he only remains silent is condoning the actions of his cronies. The endemic corruption that is part of the conflict with the Army has also been mentioned. While you would more normally associate such corruption with an African conflict it is not surprising to know it is also endemic in this one. Frequently Governemnts have vested interests in keeping wars going or starting new ones.

I make no excuses for Putin at all, he is no better than Bush or Sharon or any of the others who have decided war gets you the image of doing something to stop terrorism. The last one I had any respect for was Netenyahu (sp) and Clinton. I may have little respect for Clinton as a person, but he did manage to do something no-one else has really done and bring Israel and Palestine to relative peace for a while. Unfortunately, an assasination or two saw that blown out of the water, and I still think that was Mosad no matter who they blamed. If Putin wants and example of real Statesmanship, he only has to look at those 2.

And yes, Putin and friends certainly did say they were going to joint the Bush/Howard/Blair coalition of trying to wipe out all terrorism with bullets and bombs. It was one of his side-kicks that warned the West to get the hell out of their faces, they would deal with it any way they saw fit. It was in an article in one of our major Newspapers that was next to the article on what has happened to journalists who have questioned Putin's methods in the region, including the Media blackout imposed on Chechnya. No need to wonder why that has been done.

[Magda]

Vass, maybe you can explain something to me coz every time I watch TV or listen to the radio I get a bit confused... All the people in Russia keep blaming everything and everyone but NOT PUTIN . I'm a bit shocked with that and I don't know if it's a kind of propaganda or those people really love him so much

[Tatiana]

The people of Australia haven't fully recovered over their loss from the terroist attacks in Bali 2 years ago...now there's an attack on the Australian embassy in Jakarta...what's next??!!!
Also, during the last 3 years or so was the September 11 attack (which, by the way, was exactly today....three years ago); the war in Iraq; the guerilla warfare in Israel; the Moscow theatre seige; now, the Beslan school seige...and many more attacks which I haven't added in!
I have had enough of all of these terroist attacks and wars! When are people going to learn to love one another and make peace??

[Vassily]

Magda said:

Vass, maybe you can explain something to me coz every time I watch TV or listen to the radio I get a bit confused... All the people in Russia keep blaming everything and everyone but NOT PUTIN . I'm a bit shocked with that and I don't know if it's a kind of propaganda or those people really love him so much

Switch on the Russian television for half an hour and ypou'll get it. I haven't been so stuffed with pro-Putin (and his governament) propaganda as well as blame of terrorists than in this three weeks that I have spent in Russia. Plus, people in Russia don't read newspapers (and papers are the only independant news sources that are left). Only the ones that have internet at home ( FEW) and read the news there (fewer) actually understand what's going on, as on internet most news sites are independant.